<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1567</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/23/99 5:11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 23 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1567<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: China (was: United States)<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Warehouse 23<BR>
re:  Hiding education <BR>
Re: China <BR>
Annexation and Invasion (was Re: England)<BR>
Re: 3 words, and Homeworld <BR>
Re: Hiding education <BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy<BR>
Fate of Nations (quite long)<BR>
Re: England<BR>
RE: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1555<BR>
Re: Re Subsidies<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:12:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF<BR>
<BR>
On 12/23/1999 18:42, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Dec. 23, 1999<BR>
> Northpole Standoff<BR>
<snip> <BR>
</snip><BR>
<BR>
Gee where was Bill when all this went down? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:03:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
At 07:38 AM 12/23/1999 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sounds a lot like Rollerball, alright, but Rollerball itself was based on<BR>
>a short story called "Rollerball Murder", by William Harroson, first <BR>
>published in 1973;<BR>
<BR>
A few corrections:  The novella is titled "The Rollerball Murders, it's<BR>
Harry Harrison.<BR>
<BR>
Place your bets on the 1106 Strouden Cup Rollerball Tournament!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:07:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: China (was: United States)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:10 PM 12/23/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>  Notice how little has<BR>
>> changed under the "Communists" today.  It seems every<BR>
>> day China gets more and more like it has traditionally<BR>
>> been.  I guess that China is a good example of just what<BR>
>> "cultural inertia" really means.<BR>
><BR>
>Okay, my sense of humor is only slightly more reliable than my sense of<BR>
>good taste, so... you're kidding, right?  <BR>
<BR>
From everything I've read, since the death of Mao China has fell back into<BR>
the old ways.  The peasants farm, the warlords bluster, and everybody<BR>
avoids the Imperial Court err, the Central Committee.  If Marx and Engels<BR>
saw what China considers "communism", they'd die (again) laughing.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
If someone is arrested for jaywalking or littering just<BR>
after midnight next New Year's Eve, for at least a minute<BR>
or two he will have committed the crime of the century. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:09:57<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
At 12:01 AM 12/24/1999 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Not many. OTOH how many wars have the Germans killed sh*tloads more <BR>
>Brits than the Brits killed Germans? Two this century, for starters.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't what uniforms the bodies are wearing, what matters is whose flag<BR>
gets planted on top of the heap.<BR>
<BR>
If you go by casualty numbers, Iwo Jima was a horrendous defeat.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
Yfirmaur, Konunglegur Gramm Floti<BR>
Srstakur Vitsmunir jnusta<BR>
Sameina Her: Rm, Sver Verld Sambandsmyndun<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:15:05<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
At 03:44 AM 12/24/1982 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>> From: SFC Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
><BR>
>> ISTR reading about a college in San Francisco testing its students on<BR>
>> geography.  About half of the students, at a _San Francisco_ college,<BR>
>> couldn't locate the Pacific Ocean on a map.  (Sorry, I don't have a<BR>
>> cite.)<BR>
<BR>
I'd have to know whioch college you are taliking about.  We have several.<BR>
But I really think that story comes up to UL.  If such a thing had<BR>
happened, it would have front page news here.  (Headline: Yo!  Idiots!<BR>
Look to your left!)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:18:18<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
At 01:04 PM 12/23/1999 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yeah, but Texas has 3,234 little counties all over the place (anyone<BR>
>ever _seen_ a county map of Texas? ;-) Jeez, the county sherf probably<BR>
>leaves his jurisdiction backing out of his driveway! <BR>
<BR>
The border between the city and county of San Francisco and Daly City in<BR>
San Mateo County is a straight line.  The streets however, are another<BR>
matter.  I've picked up people whose street address is in SF, but their<BR>
houses (and public services) come from DC.<BR>
<BR>
>guess I was a nerd even in grade school (well, duh!) I liked geography:<BR>
>we always got neat little blank maps to draw on, which started a long,<BR>
>and ongoing fascination with things cartographic...<BR>
<BR>
Ever hear of Mercator's World magazine?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:20:58 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Jim said:<BR>
>Okay, I'm weird, but I liked "The Gumball Rally" better than "Death Race<BR>
>2000" and the "Magnificent Men..." movies even more than that. So sue me,<BR>
>but I like comedy.<BR>
>Eris<BR>
><BR>
>    "The Great Race" , 'nuf said.<BR>
<BR>
It's hard to talk with a pie-in-the-face...<BR>
<BR>
- - Hyphen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:24:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
At 10:12 AM 12/24/1999 +1100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Maps! I love maps! I have hundreds of 'em! Thats why I'm studying<BR>
>Spatial Information Systems! So I can roll around in them!<BR>
<BR>
Yes!  Another cartogrophile!  My idea of heaven is the USGS map store and a<BR>
full wallet.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:28:03 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Warehouse 23<BR>
<BR>
While rummaging through the warehouse I stumbled over this little baby...<BR>
<BR>
<paste><BR>
You open one of the 1000 boxes on this floor and find...<BR>
A computer keyboard, with no plug or outlet. When bought within 100 feet of<BR>
a computer, it will "echo" the keystrokes on that system. Keys will glow and<BR>
depress as the original keyboard is used. Typing on the remote keyboard will<BR>
insert characters as if they'd been typed on the original keyboard. There is<BR>
one unusual key - next to "scroll lock" there is a "sys select" key. This<BR>
toggles between keyboards, if there are several within range.<BR>
</paste><BR>
<BR>
Now, what I want to know is, what happens when using this device to view the<BR>
keystrokes of a TML subscriber if they undergo an IKS* <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond<BR>
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk<BR>
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk/strom.html<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...<BR>
...To run him through with a sword is quite another!"<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
*IKS: Involuntary Keyboard Spewage...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:29:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Hiding education <BR>
<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com><BR>
>Subject: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
<BR>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> <BR>
>>I don't doubt it.  My girlfriend's honor student <BR>
>>teen age daughter can't even name the capitals of <BR>
>>adjacent states -- in fact, she's not even sure <BR>
>>which states are adjacent to California.<BR>
>My kids learned the Animanics song listing the states<BR>
<BR>
>& capitals.  This was not their only source of <BR>
>education though.  :-)<BR>
>One is going to school at the serious place of higher<BR>
<BR>
>learning down the road from where Kenji is hanging <BR>
>out.<BR>
<BR>
You mean Boston Latin School?  I would've probably<BR>
gone there if my family hadn't moved to Idaho when I<BR>
was 10.  One would expect students to learn basic<BR>
geography there -- hell, I learned basic geography in<BR>
Boston grade schools in the 1960s. <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:37:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: China <BR>
<BR>
>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: China (was: United States)<BR>
<BR>
>On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>> I recall a quote I have read somewhere, "You may <BR>
>>have conquered us today, but tomorrow your children <BR>
>>will be Chinese."<BR>
>> -- A Chinese Statesman to a Japanese invasion <BR>
>>force Commander.<BR>
>> Be durned if he wasn't right.<BR>
<BR>
>Yes, the Sinification of Japan since the '30s is <BR>
>quite striking, isn'tit?<BR>
<BR>
Well, the Chinese have been known to take the position<BR>
that all of Japanese culture can be traced to<BR>
borrowings from China.  As to some things, the<BR>
Japanese don't deny it.  For example, many Japanese<BR>
word characters are the same as Chinese characters.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:42:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Annexation and Invasion (was Re: England)<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
Erickson)>Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin had written:<BR>
>>The ihatei live to annex.  That's what they do.<BR>
<BR>
>I beg to differ. The ihatei would *prefer* to find<BR>
>land that nobody claimed. Failing that, they'll<BR>
>settle for what they can take away from others.<BR>
<BR>
That's the same argument the United States made when<BR>
it took over native lands.  "Nobody is claiming this;<BR>
nobody owns it.  We're just settling on empty, unused<BR>
land."  The rhetoric is a little different in the Far<BR>
Future, but the idea is the same.  To the extent that<BR>
the ihatei can justify taking someone else's land with<BR>
the argument that the native doesn't really own it,<BR>
they will.  To the extent they don't have to justify<BR>
it, they won't bother.<BR>
<BR>
It is true that some land is actually empty, not<BR>
inhabited, used, or otherwise owned by any sophonts,<BR>
and that land is quite attractive to the ihatei.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:44:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3 words, and Homeworld <BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: 3 words, and Homeworld (was Re: <BR>
>Travshorts IV)<BR>
<BR>
>Well, I'm rather fond of the description in<BR>
>Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy". Basicly, while <BR>
>the computer does most of the work, the gunner is <BR>
>constanly using his "trained intuition" to suggest <BR>
>options "What if he changes course or accel like <BR>
>*this*?" "What if we do *that*?"<BR>
<BR>
I don't remember that, but it's been nearly 30 years<BR>
since I read Citizen of the Galaxy -- maybe it's time<BR>
to revisit it.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:49:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education <BR>
<BR>
>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical <BR>
>idiocy <BR>
<BR>
>There's an old joke hereabouts (I'm told) about why <BR>
>the "8 items or less" express cashiers' lines at all <BR>
>the shops in Cambridge are so long and slow:  MIT <BR>
>students can't read, Harvard students can't count.<BR>
<BR>
That is old, because I first heard it when I lived in<BR>
Cambridge in 1979.  The Harvard students were also the<BR>
ones most likely to note (correctly) that the sign<BR>
should properly read "8 items or fewer" (and Whole<BR>
Foods here in the Bay Area uses the correct wording). <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:58:49 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Thomas wrote:<BR>
>Just a note. Cattle ranches here in Texas used to measured in RI's.<BR>
<BR>
The Aussie one I heard was the Texan bragging about his 800-acre property, and<BR>
asking the Aussie how big his farm was:<BR>
Central Aussie farmer: "One hundred..."<BR>
Texan, interrupting: "Only one hundred?"<BR>
Aussie farmer: ".. square miles".<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:47:32 -0500<BR>
From: peersce@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Fate of Nations (quite long)<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4D43.E11105C0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.comSubject: Re: United States<BR>
><BR>
> >I'm developing Terra (era 1120 in the G:T timeline)<BR>
> >for SJG.  Right now I'm thinking that virtually<BR>
> >*none* of the nation-states of the late 20th Century<BR>
> >still exist in any significant form in the Third<BR>
> >Imperium era.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm...  Let's think of the differences between then and now and how =<BR>
they will affect the evolution and decay of nations.<BR>
1) Communications<BR>
        a. History is well documented and indestructible by anything but =<BR>
a major catastrophe (silicon eating bacteria, whatever, re: Ringworld) =<BR>
that destroys computerized information retrieval systems) or a holocaust =<BR>
such as a global nuclear war or a plague (12 Monkeys) that will destroy =<BR>
civilization down to the family unit.  Oral tradition of who we are and =<BR>
what our society is will probably be lost and new forms based on =<BR>
survival/practicality will grow.<BR>
THE POINT:  20th century entrenched nations (Russia, China, US, Europe, =<BR>
Argentina, Brazil, Egypt, Oz,for example) will most likely still be =<BR>
there in some form.  The way they are governed, what their societies are =<BR>
like, will have changed (probably cyclically over such a long period of =<BR>
time), but the continuity with the past won't be broken.  They will =<BR>
remember who they are and what their country is supposed to be.  What =<BR>
could cause the name itself disappear is changes in the people.<BR>
EXAMPLES:  Russia: once Russia became a nation, instead of the Land of =<BR>
the Slavs, it never went back.  Despite the depredations of the Mongols, =<BR>
the rule of the Tsars, the new government and ideology of Communism, and =<BR>
the democratic government it has now, Russia is still Russia, despite =<BR>
the changes in how its governed.<BR>
                    Italy:  Once Italy became Rome, and entrenched =<BR>
itself and its traditions for hundreds of years, it was identifiable =<BR>
even when it was split to pieces.  Today, approx. 2000 years later, =<BR>
modern Italy is the core of territory of Rome.<BR>
                    Egypt:  The people are very different, the religion =<BR>
is utterly different.  Still, it is Egypt, because people lived the same =<BR>
way for thousands of years, and asked, "who are we and where do we come =<BR>
from?  Who are we as a people? Who left these pyramids out?".<BR>
                    China:  a cultural and linguistic bloc which only a =<BR>
world destroying holocaust could shake.  IMHO, it would have to be a =<BR>
deliberate, systematic  attempt to destroy it (perhaps after occupying =<BR>
Terra, the Vilani decide to destroy Terra's largest homogenous =<BR>
population. They kill all the adults (nuclear, biological, chemical), =<BR>
punish the children if they speak Chinese and not Vilani, and ship them =<BR>
to barren colony worlds.  In time, they may forget where they came from. =<BR>
 I think this has happened to alot of the smaller Native American tribes =<BR>
since the colonial era.  This was successfully done by the ancient =<BR>
Israelites to the Nabateans.  They killed all the men and forced the =<BR>
women and children to convert to Judaism and speak Hebrew.  They forgot =<BR>
who they were, and were only rediscovered by modern archeaologists).<BR>
                    England:  Older than a thousand years and still =<BR>
going, London is still London, there is still a monarch, the country's =<BR>
heritage keeps it concious of itself.<BR>
                    Ethiopia:  Despite the depredations of slavery, =<BR>
colonialism, wars, starvation the country was ruled in the same way for =<BR>
hundreds of years, and is culturally much older (HISTORY EXPERTS: THIS =<BR>
IS OFF THE CUFF).<BR>
<BR>
So.  That's my 2MCr<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4D43.E11105C0<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>From: <A=20<BR>
href=3D"mailto:JFZeigler@aol.comSubject:">JFZeigler@aol.comSubject: =<BR>
Re: United=20<BR>
States<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;I'm developing Terra (era 1120 in the G:T=20timeline)<BR>
&gt; &gt;for SJG.&nbsp; Right now I'm thinking that=20virtually<BR>
&gt; &gt;*none* of the nation-states of the late 20th=20Century<BR>
&gt; &gt;still exist in any significant form in the =Third<BR>
&gt;=20&gt;Imperium era.<BR>
</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Hmmm...&nbsp; Let's think of the =differences=20 between then and now and how they will affect the evolution and decay of =  nations.</DIV><DIV>1) Communications</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a.=20History is well documented and indestructible by anything but a major=20 catastrophe (silicon eating bacteria, whatever, re: Ringworld) that = destroys=20 computerized information retrieval systems) or a holocaust such as a = global=20 nuclear war or a plague (12 Monkeys) that will destroy civilization down = to the=20 family unit.&nbsp; Oral tradition of who we are and what our society is = will=20 probably be lost and new forms based on survival/practicality will=20grow.</DIV><DIV>THE POINT:&nbsp; 20th century =entrenched nations=20 (Russia, China, US, Europe, Argentina, Brazil, Egypt, Oz,for example) = will most=20 likely still be there in some form.&nbsp; The way they are governed, = what their=20 societies are like, will have changed (probably cyclically over such a = long=20 period of time), but the continuity with the past won't be broken.&nbsp; = They=20 will remember who they are and what their country is supposed to = be.&nbsp; What=20 could cause the name itself disappear is changes in the = people.</DIV><DIV>EXAMPLES:&nbsp; Russia:&nbsp;once =Russia became a=20 nation, instead of the Land of the Slavs, it never went back.&nbsp; = Despite the=20 depredations of the Mongols, the rule of the Tsars, the new government = and=20 ideology of Communism, and the democratic government it has now, Russia = is still=20 Russia, despite the changes in how its governed.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 Italy:&nbsp; Once Italy became Rome, and entrenched itself and its = traditions=20 for hundreds of years, it was identifiable even when it was = split&nbsp;to=20 pieces.&nbsp; Today, approx. 2000 years later,&nbsp;modern&nbsp;Italy is = the=20 core of territory of Rome.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Egypt:&nbsp; = The people=20 are very different, the religion is utterly different.&nbsp; Still, = it&nbsp;is=20 Egypt, because people lived the same way for thousands of years, and = asked, "who=20 are we and where do we come from?&nbsp; Who are we as a people? Who left =these=20pyramids out?".</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; China:&nbsp; a = cultural=20 and linguistic bloc which only a world&nbsp;destroying holocaust could=20 shake.&nbsp;&nbsp;IMHO, it would have&nbsp;to be a deliberate, =systematic=20&nbsp;attempt to destroy it =(perhaps after=20occupying Terra, the Vilani decide to destroy Terra's largest homogenous =  population. They kill all the adults (nuclear, biological, chemical), = punish the=20 children if they speak Chinese and not Vilani, and ship them to barren = colony=20 worlds.&nbsp; In time, they may forget where they came from.&nbsp; I = think this=20 has happened to alot of the smaller Native American tribes since the = colonial=20 era.&nbsp; This was successfully done by the ancient Israelites to the=20 Nabateans.&nbsp; They killed all the men and forced the women and = children to=20 convert to Judaism and speak Hebrew.&nbsp; They forgot who they were, =and were=20only rediscovered by modern archeaologists).</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 England:&nbsp; Older than a thousand years and still going, London is = still=20 London, there is still a monarch, the country's heritage keeps it =concious of=20itself.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ethiopia:&nbsp; = Despite=20 the depredations of slavery, colonialism, wars, starvation the country = was ruled=20 in the same way for hundreds of years, and is culturally much older =(HISTORY=20EXPERTS: THIS IS OFF THE CUFF).</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>So.&nbsp; That's my =2MCr</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4D43.E11105C0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:07:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>>If that's a typical attitude, it's no wonder someone<BR>
<BR>
>>(i.e., the USA) has had to bail your country out of <BR>
>>two major wars in this century.  <BR>
>  Form a queue, you rebel swine; as usual, the Empire<BR>
<BR>
>and Commonwealth had saved the silly buggers before <BR>
>you guys even woke up from your nap<BR>
<BR>
Empire and Commonwealth?  Weren't they starting to<BR>
teach Japanese in the public schools in India and<BR>
Australia by 1941 so that their children would have<BR>
some chance to get ahead in the new world order?  <BR>
<BR>
The colonial forces did not even slow the Japanese<BR>
advance into the parts of Asia that they conquered<BR>
(nor did U.S. forces in the Philippines).  India was<BR>
saved by geography.  Japanese supply lines through<BR>
China and Burma were too long and too easily<BR>
interrupted to make an invasion of India realistic. <BR>
Australia was likewise too far, with too much water<BR>
and too many American warships in between.  <BR>
<BR>
Colonial forces protected Britain directly in the<BR>
African and European theaters, but certainly did not<BR>
pull the mother country's butt out of the fire.  <BR>
<BR>
Politics and stupidity in the German high command<BR>
helped Britain much more than the colonial forces ever<BR>
did (and, arguably, at least as much as U.S.<BR>
involvement).  Of course, once the Hitler/Stalin<BR>
alliance broke down the British reverted to their<BR>
usual policy of fighting the Germans until the<BR>
shedding of the very last drop of Russian blood.  <BR>
<BR>
(Politics and stupidity:  Not letting Guderian finish<BR>
off the British forces at Dunkirk, but holding him<BR>
back so the Luftwaffe could practice dive-bombing;<BR>
failing to try to destroy the Royal Navy during the<BR>
Battle of Britain; failing even to attempt to seize<BR>
the North Sea; not even attempting to invade Britain<BR>
(which would have necessitated neutralizing the Royal<BR>
Navy); and opening the front against the Soviet Union<BR>
before defeating Britain.)<BR>
<BR>
There's an Ob Traveller in here somewhere -- something<BR>
about the Fifth Frontier War, colonial forces,<BR>
Corridor Fleet ... no, it's Frontier Wars leading to<BR>
palace changes ... mmm damn lost it better have some<BR>
coffee.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:47:42 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
<BR>
On 12/23/99 at 12:49 AM,  Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hell, I'm in Milpitas (close enough for a road trip), and Todd's in<BR>
>Stockton.  Ya' never know!  You should come out to BayCon next Memorial<BR>
>Day weekend.  Seems to be shaping up as a major West Coast TML get<BR>
>together.<BR>
<BR>
Tying this thread to "the US is really big" thread...it's tough for us to<BR>
all get together.  Those that are west have a problem getting east and<BR>
vise versa.  Heck those of us southeast have a problem getting to the<BR>
upper midwest. <BR>
<BR>
What we might want to do is pick out several regional cons for us<BR>
Traveller types to concentrate on?  As a suggestion BayCon on the west<BR>
coast, GenCon in the midwest, maybe DragonCon in the south and another ??<BR>
in the northeast.  That way we could be sure of having two or three good<BR>
Traveller games at a con we might be able to attend. <BR>
<BR>
What do you think?<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    who has never been to a con, but might give it a try if he<BR>
    *knew* he'd get a good game of Traveller out of it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:51:32 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1555<BR>
<BR>
On 12/23/99 at 09:25 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 22:06 -0500 22/12/99, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>> Not really. The _I:E_ rules are sadly lacking in color/fill text. Really<BR>
>> playable, tho. The map shows NO boundaries, a few starports, and<BR>
>> urbanization re >><BR>
>><BR>
>>Like I said earlier, don't take the map as gospel to the millimeter.<BR>
<BR>
>Loren,<BR>
<BR>
>You realise how many canonites this will have put into shock and trauma?<BR>
<BR>
>;-)<BR>
<BR>
Nah, nah-nah! Nah Nah!  See, I told you so. We are *all* heretics! ;-p<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:56:07 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Subsidies<BR>
<BR>
On 12/23/82 at 08:49 PM,  "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>> As for his "Monopoly", it would probably have made a tidy profit.<BR>
>> Monopolies are not technically illegal in the US... they are only illegal<BR>
>> when they prevent the rise of competition by unfair buisiness practice. For<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover, the issue of legality of monopolies did not even arise until<BR>
>the early twentieth century, after they decided to start using the<BR>
>Sherman Anti-Trust Act against its actual intended targets, trusts in<BR>
>restraint of trade.  Prior to that, the Act was a union-busting tool. <BR>
>I've forgotten when the Act became law; it seems to me 1890-something.  <BR>
<BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
>(a typical history major, I can't recall most historical dates)<BR>
<BR>
Hey, I don't either!  You think it's an occupational hazard?  <g> <BR>
<BR>
I teach computer science now, and when I do the history module for the<BR>
literacy classes I always focus on the who and what, not dates. I tell the<BR>
students that "If I put a date on the test, the answer will be false. <BR>
Guaranteed!"  You'd be surprised how many of my students don't believe<BR>
me...the first time.  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1567<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:11:08 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:10:48 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA60579;<BR>
	Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:10:27 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:10:19 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA60521<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:10:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:10:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199912240110.UAA60521@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1567<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
